https://www.clawscustomboxes.com/v7xtl3en5 Two decisions have come down from Supreme Courts in two different countries. One was the USA Supreme Court and the other was a Turkish court. The USA Supreme Court declared that the USA must honor a treaty signed by the government in the 1800s after the Trail of Tears to Oklahoma. The Turkish court revoked the status of Hagia Sophia as a museum, which had stood for 80 years.
Both cases had things in common. In both cases the land and the church were owned by a people group that was conquered. Native Americans were conquered in the USA, Christians were conquered in the Asia Minor region of the Roman Empire when the capital of the Empire fell. Please note that they never called themselves the Byzantine Empire. To this day, Turks refer to Christians as “Rûm,” a derivative of the Greek word for Romans.
https://sugandhmalhotra.com/2024/08/07/t2fzuh1nuzc In the case of the Native Americans, a treaty was signed that gave a certain area of eastern Oklahoma to them in perpetuity. That treaty was never changed or nullified. It was however dishonored and ignored. Based on the treaty, the USA Supreme Court ruled that your word is bond. Ultimately, the basic meaning of law and order is that the laws are obeyed and order is maintained. I do not use that terminology because it has been co-opted for political purposes and now implies a particular political party. However, the term itself is a sound term. The USA Supreme Court ruled that order cannot be maintained if treaties/laws are not actually honored.
https://www.completerehabsolutions.com/blog/pcn8mxe9dwe The case of Hagia Sophia is a little more complex. When Constantinople was conquered, it began to be called Istanbul, although the name did not become the official name until 1930. Hagia Sophia was converted into a mosque. It was only converted into a museum 85 years ago, in 1935, after functioning as a mosque for several hundred years. The first Turkish President after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, Kemal Atatürk, secularized the building.
https://nedediciones.com/uncategorized/ztm4tejkis What the two episodes have in common is that Native Americans never gave up claim to their Oklahoma land. The treaty was a lie and was not honored. Parts of Tulsa are built–according to the recent USA Supreme Court ruling–on reservation land. Eastern Christians also never gave up their claim to Hagia Sophia and were horrified when it was forcibly converted into a mosque. They were, by and large, willing to somewhat accept the museum designation only in that it meant that Islamic services were no longer being held there.
https://merangue.com/t2gjvj2iy2 There are many Eastern Christians, particularly Greeks and Russians, who still long for and push for Hagia Sophia to be returned. Both the Greek Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church have condemned converting Hagia Sophia back into a mosque. Not surprisingly, there are many Muslim whose attitude is that this is too bad, we had it as a mosque after you lost the war.
Buying Xanax Online There are many Native Americans who long for and push for their sacred worship sites to be returned. [And, yes, I know that some argue that some of the sacred worship sites were not considered that back when Native Americans still had control of the land. However, various of the sacred worship areas do have a sound history.] Not surprisingly, there are many non-Native-Americans whose attitude is that this is too bad, you lost the wars.
https://udaan.org/j09ckjreg.php Are you seeing the parallels? Of course, there are historical differences! But, do not let the historical differences make you miss the basic issue. The issue has to do with long-term land or building ownership given the vicissitudes of history. Bolivia still claims a seacoast that was taken from them by Chile after a war in the late 1800s. It still makes the claim that this is their land. Spain wants Gibraltar back. It lost Gibraltar to England in the early 1700s as a result of a war. I could go on with list after list of claims that have perdured for hundreds of years. The current Turkish President still claims that most of Spain belongs to the Muslims. I doubt Spain will agree, but he is trying to revive the Caliphate. There are older Cubans in Miami (and other cities) that swear that they are either owed compensation for the lands taken from them by the Cuban Revolution, or swear that if Communism is overthrown that they have the right to go back and take back their old lands, throwing out anyone who lives there.
No, I do not have any good answers. And, we need to be very careful about how we answer. If I support returning Hagia Sophia, am I supporting returning all treaty lands to Native Americans? Am I supporting returning the old Bolivian territory that is now northern Chile? Am I encouraging the return of Muslim control of most of Spain? What is a consistent stance that will not open the door to all types of ancient claims?
Cheap Xanax 2Mg At least the USA Supreme Court decision is based on a treaty made by the same nation that is still in power to this day. And, the decision did not return control of parts of Tulsa to a tribal entity. It only picked up one part of the treaty and enabling federal law, and only ruled on that particular issue and nothing else. Nevertheless, I perceive future lawsuits by tribal councils requesting that treaties be enforced. But, where the current government bears no relation to the original government, such as in Turkey, or where the current government has no treaty whatsoever with the complaining party, such as in Spain, is there any responsibility?
I am going to finish here as I have no answer. However, I think that we need to be cautious in what we say. If we claim Hagia Sophia must be returned, even though the current government is not a continuation of the Ottoman Empire, then should we not also argue in favor of Native American lands where the same American government that made the treaty is still in power? If I argue for Gibraltar being returned to Spain, should I argue for Chile to give up a couple of conquered cities in northern Chile (and the land to the ocean) to Bolivia? I have no answer.
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John Collins says
https://inteligencialimite.org/2024/08/07/nbphyuzk55a
https://aiohealthpro.com/rlundwo5b14 This artical is dripping with bias. I teach my students to look for bias in all of their research. The first red flag to look for is the word “but”. Three letters. So innocuous. When engaging in a debate or argument or manipulation, “but” is a magical eraser. Especially when it is used in a sentence that begins…Some say…, but ….
https://transculturalexchange.org/3hy84v84 Let me give you something to think about. Did Mehmet II offer anything to Constantine XI in exchange for his city? Maybe Western Greece, or even Gallipoli? Did he even offer to spare his life? To compare these two historical events is ludicrous.
https://polyploid.net/blog/?p=plsbzm63p Sigh, except of course I was comparing way more than two historical events. And, BTW, Mehmet revoked all concessions made to Constantine on charges of violation of truce. Then during the later siege he did offer concessions provided the Romans would turn the city over to him. “As to surrendering the city to you, it is not for me to decide or for anyone else of its citizens; for all of us have reached the mutual decision to die of our own free will, without any regard for our lives.” Constantine died the day the city fell though there are no clear witnesses. No enforceable treaties were left. The rest of Greece was eventually conquered and subjugated. Eventually, like Spain, Greece won its freedom back by force of arms.
Alprazolam Buy Canada And all that has nothing to do with my article. There was a conquest, just like England was conquered by the Normans, just like Ireland was conquered by the later English, just like the Syrians and the Moors conquered Spain, just like …
https://www.clawscustomboxes.com/xsyce77s My question was about conquests. How much recourse do the conquered have years later to try to claim back what was conquered? In the case of Tulsa, there is an existing treaty that has been declared valid. Actually, in the case of Istanbul, there is a conquered city that is no longer Greek and no outstanding treaty. In the other cases I cited, there generally has been a conquest with no outstanding treaty about the conquered lands.
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Ernesto M. Obregón why didnt Obama and Joe Biden take care of this problem. They had full control of the government and put a couple of unqualified blatantly Liberal judges on the SCOTUS. Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize for Pete’s sake! And you support Joe Biden for President.
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John Collins says
https://oevenezolano.org/2024/08/oizrcyfa2k
Something else….. BTW…I am 7% Maya. Anthropologically the original Native Americans. I had my DNA tested.
https://blog.extraface.com/2024/08/07/3umbcpmk My grandfather’s family had two options river 100 years ago, leave Mexico or be killed. I once asked my mother if she ever wanted to go back to the Yucatán to look up her cousins? All of them are dead, she said.
https://aiohealthpro.com/bt2rsz4mait Barack Obama and Joe Biden had 8 years to eradicate racism, right past wrongs, rewrite the history books. They are NOT the persons you think they are.
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Ernesto M. Obregón says
https://www.completerehabsolutions.com/blog/a0ha18100ka And, now you have gone into the totally irrelevant and non-applicable.
https://sugandhmalhotra.com/2024/08/07/a4bsvs30m
Not totally irrelevant when you paint a broad picture of all people of Native American ancestry feeling slighted.
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John Collins says
https://blog.extraface.com/2024/08/07/ziisxnqye3
So why make the comparison in the first place? There is no point in this article. A better comparison would have been first Americans to be aware if what will happen when fundamentalist Muslims take power. And be aware that in certain pockets of some American cities, people are calling for Sharia law, also implicitly by a couple of US Congressmen.
https://oevenezolano.org/2024/08/ozqvh33t6tn
Derek Reese says
Xanax Bars Where To Buy Online John, help me out here. What does your suggestion have to do with either the decision of SCOTUS regarding OK lands or Hagia Sophia? This seems completely out of left field.
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Derek Reese says
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https://www.completerehabsolutions.com/blog/202n87ks Fascinating thought process, Ernesto. I’ve been thinking about a similar vein of thought in regards to all of monetary value denied to Black Americans after hundreds of years of slavery, segregation, bigotry and systemic racism. Where do you draw the line? How do you right historical wrongs and how far should you not only go back in time to evaluate those wrongs but also try and make amends for them? It’s a complicated process.
Derek, as I said in the article, I have no clear idea. As with everything today, there are several extremes and few moderate voices. However, there is a little more clarity on the subject of lands taken and then that nation/government falls to either a conqueror or a revolution. By and large, the old property claims do tend to cease. The exception is colonies. That is what was going on with Hong King and what is going on with Gibraltar. Having said that, looted artworks are now tending to be returned. In other words, I do not thinnk we have developed a clear logic on this subject.
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Derek Reese says
Ernesto, it’s a tricky thing for sure. I think setting the world completely to rights requires some other type of intervention ?
Seems like the very least the government could do is treat it like eminent domain and give them a fair price for the land they took. To be fair, they should be paying back rent!
I got the comparison Fr. Ernesto was making.
Let me give you some background:
I was born in Greece.
My heroes were ancient Greeks like Pericles, Leonidas, and Alexander the Great.
My heroes were also those who fought and started the Greek Revolution of 1821.
My dad, at 10 years old supplied the front against the Axis powers in WW2.
My grandfather was in the Greek Army between 1919 and 1922 in Constantinople, until “the allies” betrayed the Greeks and in the aftermath of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire changed their support to Turkish Nationalist Kemal Attaturk, founder of modern, secular Turkey.
Some additional background.
Ancient Greece as an identity didn’t so much exist as a “supra-national” idea until after Alexander the Great conquered half the known world.
But, shortly after this idea was established The Romans conquered what was left of “Greece” and the “Greek Nation”.
The Roman Empire splintered into East and West (with two Emperors) until the West fell. Eventually, the Christian East became known as the Byzantine Empire. Why? Because, Constantine’s City was build upon the Ancient Greek city Byzantium.
By the end of the Byzantine Empire, before the Ottomans conquered it all, the last few Emperors were of a “Greek” background and a Greek Identity was starting to re-appear… but.
As of 400 years later people from the Eastern Roman Empire called themselves ?????? (Romans). Even while growing up, I was taught this and called myself a Roman. We even had a saying “Una fatcha, una ratcha.” One face, one race. (Meaning Romans -today’s Italians – and Greeks were from the same stock.)
This would suggest that Greeks had developed more of “Roman Empire identity”. Even as Greece begun to expand its territory late in the 19th century Greeks who had been given German overlords as Kings thought of themselves as Romans.
But,
as a Greek Identity was starting to re-assert itself, the idea of a Greater Greece begun to surface. ? ?????? ???? (The Great Idea) posited that Greece’s Manifest Destiny was to become a nation that reclaimed most of the territory of the old East Roman Empire (the Byzantine Empire). This was to include Constantinople.
And it almost happened if not of the Western Powers betrayal.
And below all of this underlay the fact that these Greeks, my direct ancestors had preserved an almost 2 millennia Christian Faith.
But, in many ways, even with betrayal, Greeks sort of shot themselves in the foot too. They overextended and wished for too much.
But why did I just give you this background? Because:
– Greeks still call The City (Istanbul) Constantinople.
– But Constantinople (and Hagia Sophia) were conquered by the Ottomans. Conquerors can do as they please, mostly, after they win.
– But, as Fr. Ernesto said, Americans signed a treaty with the Native People who had been displaced to Oklahoma.
– Yet, Greeks have prayed and wished for the return of Constantinople and Hagia Sophia.
– And the reason that Russians are against what’s happening with Hagia Sophia is because that was the Church were the Rus were converted to Christianity.
The biggest takeaway from all of this is that Turkey can no longer call itself a secular democracy. Really, the only reason that Erdogan is doing this is to appease the hard islamist supporters of his party. Despite his 17 years of rule, the people of Turkey are getting tired of him. Right now, he has embraced his own “great idea” of a Turkey at the center of a new Ottoman Empire. He’s claiming Greek Islands and waterways. He has extended his reach into Libya, angering Egyptians. And has driven Israel, Cyprus and Greece into a military cooperation treaty to counter his aggression in Syria and elsewhere.
It is in this light that Erdogan reversed the actions of Attaturk who converted Hagia Sophia into a museum (which he did to preserve the fledgling Turkish nation.)
So, everything must be understood in perspective to History and past actions.
– A treaty is a promise.
– A conqueror has the ability to impose his will, world opinion be damned.
“Ernesto M. Obregón why didnt Obama and Joe Biden take care of this problem. They had full control of the government and put a couple of unqualified blatantly Liberal judges on the SCOTUS.”
“Barack Obama and Joe Biden had 8 years to eradicate racism, right past wrongs, rewrite the history books. They are NOT the persons you think they are.”
I smell MAGA…