https://blog.extraface.com/2024/08/07/edpx3skr The same nun about whom I wrote yesterday commented to me that many priests do not know how to deal with people with addictions. In particular, she commented to me about dealing with alcoholism. She mentioned, in particular, the group Alcoholics Anonymous as being a very helpful group. Alcoholics Anonymous has always had trouble with some priests and some Protestant pastors. There is a tendency among some of them to be worried about AA because AA does not have an overtly Christian statement of faith, but has people deal with a Supreme Being. They worry that AA will lead those among them who are alcoholics into a type of “ecumenism.” So, let me quote from Bishop Alexey of Orekhovo-Zuevo:
https://inteligencialimite.org/2024/08/07/4fv6tg6zx5k You ask how I got acquainted with AA Community’s program. I have a spiritual child. You should have seen him earlier! He was always drunk and reeked of tobacco. Now he does not see himself without Church activities. He is a church warden and helps a lot at our monastery. He became such a person due to AA Community! Every day he read aloud to me abstracts from the book “Twenty four hours a day”. The book is intended for those who take part in AA groups and helps them on their recovery course set up for each day. The book makes people think and even helps them learn to pray. Many ideas from the book have sunk deep into my heart. Certainly they are of Christian, Gospel nature.
Purchasing Xanax Online Enlightener Ignaty Bryanchaninov explains in his writings that a person should be like a condemned one. Surely the Programme helps the person feel himself a sinner, but a sinner who is not indulging in his earthly needs but who believes in his deliverance, his healing, and his ultimate transformation by the grace of God. He also sees others who have found the way…At the AA meetings I was struck by the people’s mercilessness towards themselves. You can rarely hear such things even at confession.
https://www.clawscustomboxes.com/urs459r There are some key points made by Bishop Alexey. He caught on to the fact that the self-discipline expected by the AA is every bit as rigorous as some of the monastic schema. For those of you who know AA, you know that the person has to admit their complete incapacity to change unless a “Supreme Being” intercedes. But, they do not expect the Supreme Being to do all the work for them. There are various steps they must follow, including a rigorous code of confession that not only embraces confession to the group as a whole but confession to the people whom the alcoholic hurt because of their addiction. On top of that, the alcoholic must make restitution, to the extent possible, for the damages resulting from their sin.
Cheapest Xanax Online And, just like the monastics, every member of AA has a “buddy” who not only keeps track of them, but is also available at any time of the day or night to talk to the alcoholic, when the alcoholic is going through a hard time and about to lose self-control. The buddy is himself/herself an alcoholic who has already gone through the Twelve Steps and has remained sober for a while. In other words, the buddy is every bit the equivalent of the elder in Orthodox tradition.
https://udaan.org/16llv7jf1a.php Thus, AA is not like the stereotypical Protestant group which stops at salvation and forgets about the need to go on to a truly changed life. Rather, many of the AA approaches are quite compatible with the Orthodox viewpoint on synergy. In passing, I am convinced that many of our Orthodox would certainly benefit from the AA attitude that unless the Lord intercedes, there is no hope of change. That is not a Protestant statement; that is an Orthodox statement. All too many Orthodox have the attitude that synergy means our doing all the work, and that we are capable of doing all the work. But, that is not what the Early Church Fathers thought. Rather, synergy is the concept of our putting in the mustard seed and trusting God to give the increase. Yes, we must sow unto salvation; but, we must never forget who it is that gives the increase. Synergy should always recognize that the main partner in working out our salvation is God and not us.
Generic Alprazolam Online So, I can highly recommend that Orthodox parishes open their doors to AA groups meeting in their facilities.
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Huw Raphael says
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https://homeupgradespecialist.com/bcwqbsh0 Fr Meletios Webber has a book called “Steps of Transformation” that discusses the 12 Steps in the light of Orthodox Spiritual practice.
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Headless Unicorn Guy says
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https://transculturalexchange.org/ogkawvudj Thus, AA is not like the stereotypical Protestant group which stops at salvation and forgets about the need to go on to a truly changed life.
https://udaan.org/o2xsi81eaq.php The Evangelical/Fundagelical wing of American Protestant Christianity has been committed to such a “Gospel of Personal Salvation and ONLY Personal Salvation” for a couple generations (especially since The Sixties). Look at the fruits.
https://blog.extraface.com/2024/08/07/at0eh01yqw Buy Xanax Pills Online That is not a Protestant statement; that is an Orthodox statement. All too many Orthodox have the attitude that synergy means our doing all the work, and that we are capable of doing all the work.
Is this why “More Rigorously Ascetically Monastic Than Thou” is the characteristically Orthodox way of flaking out?
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Fr. Ernesto Obregon says
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Yep, any doctrine can be misused by folks. Thus, Calvin preached both election and perseverance of the saints. No early Calvinist would have dared argue “once saved always saved.” If a person’s life did not show the evidence of election, then they were not elect. Interestingly enough, there are even those who dare to argue that Calvin’s doctrine of perseverance of the saints led to a supposed “works-righteousness” approach among the Scottish Calvinists and among the Puritans. The people who preach “once saved always saved” see any Christian responsibility of any type as being “works-righteousness.”
On the Orthodox side, there are those who misuse the doctrine of synergy to almost negate the free gift of God. The doctrine of synergy does not have to do with earning our way into heaven. Both Scripture and the Early Church Fathers are very clear on that. But, you are correct, our doctrine of synergy can also be misused to undo the free gift of God in Christ Jesus Our Lord. Those who misuse it often become more ascetic and monastic than thou.
https://inteligencialimite.org/2024/08/07/91su84k
Fr Isaac Gayer says
https://foster2forever.com/2024/08/ydl22a842rb.html
https://sugandhmalhotra.com/2024/08/07/ka0xkvurnfk I have been an attendee at 12 step groups for years . The steps are compatable with historical christianity ie orthodoxy catholicism anglo catholicism. I find many of my fellows in 12 step recovery are true christians or become christians as a resultof participation 12 step. after searching for years for for a spirituality that “works” Ive found it here. the steps are for all of us for we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. all are addicted to sin but not all get to the root of the problem. thanks for the article
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Buying Xanax Those steps are indeed in line with Catholicism and Anglo Catholicism but not Orthodoxy.
https://nedediciones.com/uncategorized/v82hkolclmc
I agree with most of what is said, but there is a huge problem with AA that was not discussed here: It is not under the Church and thus places itself above the Church. It becomes the Church for the people there. These people need the love of Christ and his Church but replace it with a bond of depravity – they are worse than Calvinists. They each have to say, “hi my name is John and I am an alcoholic,” even if they are over the alcoholism. They bring themselves into the bondage of the devil just like Calvinists do. That incantation that they partake in keeps them together and locked into the group. If you say that you are going to leave, they say that you will not make it because you are “still an alcoholic.” There is no healing realy, it is all white knuckling and idolatry.
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Isaac C. says
https://oevenezolano.org/2024/08/6gccryfy97u [Edited by request of another commentator.]
https://foster2forever.com/2024/08/3zgan1v.html I’m writing this because you’re speaking as though you’ve never been to these programs, and I have. You’re completely wrong about them. Confession of “alcoholism” or any other addiction is the diagnosis, but many people who achieve long-term sobriety identify themselves as a recovering addict, or even a recovered addict. The point of self-identification is that in acknowledging weakness and failure, they attack their egoistic pride and rely upon the help of God. Bondage isn’t the point, it’s like saying, without God’s grace I’m the most wicked sinner. Self-condemnation, honesty, humility. You should try it some time.
How To Purchase Xanax Online Amen, there is no healing outside of Christ. Remember the man paralyzed by the pool, with no man to help him? Christ came to him in his weakness and asked if he wanted to be healed. Christ gave him complete healing, and the man didn’t even know His Name! If “the God of our understanding” means anything in AA and other 12 step groups, it is a confession that God somehow is, and that we are not God. No, it’s not quite the fullness– far from it– but it’s not inconsistent with the true God, and may just be the avenue through which the true God acts.
https://www.clawscustomboxes.com/agnq5ccvw I’m not sure where you ever heard of “white knuckling” since the only place I’ve ever gotten that term is from 12 step literature that condemns it. It’s precisely the opposite of surrender to God and reliance upon Him to heal our infirmities– the message of the 12 steps. May God grant us all repentance.
https://solomedicalsupply.com/2024/08/07/9ikuwf8ej1 The AA Big book and the 12 steps themselves are filled with profoundly (and uniquely) Christian truths, but packaged for the broader Western culture that emerged in the early 20th Century. It could never replace the holy fathers, nor can its statements be uncritically accepted by the sober Orthodox Christian. But it is a path that outlines Christian spiritual truths, and is based upon the experience (rather than theory) of people who suffered immensely from bondage to various passions and found a way out.
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Brand Xanax 2Mg Online Dishonest much Mike?
Cheapest Xanax For Sale “It is not under the Church and thus places itself above the Church”
https://merangue.com/5t1fhnw15w Um,…..no.
Buy Alprazolam Wholesale “They each have to say, “hi my name is John and I am an alcoholic,”
https://udaan.org/bioihup.php Um,……. no again. No requirement, just a traditional greeting.
Cheap Overnight Xanax “That incantation”, “the bondage of the devil”
https://transculturalexchange.org/qzvgrvnb27 Even the most brief inquiry will expose your statements as absurd.
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Mike Spreng says
https://nedediciones.com/uncategorized/jgu8z64lq
Um…yes, it does not seek the authority of any church. And yes, it teaches a sick form of depravity. There is not victory outside of Christ my friend. God may indeed use them to bring people to Christ but God can use most any cult or religion. I assume, based on your philosophy of AA that you are okay with the Freemasons? It’s all antithetical to the Church of Christ.
So, I guess the several metropolitans and hierarchs that are quoted if you follow the link at the beginning of the article are all wrong? AA is not perfect, but they certainly are not Calvinists nor anything near that. They come from enough different denominations that they do not have a “Protestant” view of life.
You are right, they are not under the Church. But, by your same argument, it means that any organization that is not Orthodox is automatically evil and leads people away from Christ. So, organizations such as Bread for the World or World Vision or any Orthodox organization that cooperates with any other non-Orthodox organization is somehow promoting evil? In fact, let me go farther, by your argument, military chaplains are in deep sin because they lead base chapel prayer services which all may attend and in which Orthodoxy is not directly preached. Therefore, all metropolitans should require all chaplains to leave the Armed Forces.
You see, I can take your argument in any of several directions because it boils down to a form of separatism that is not actually fully Orthodox, unless, of course, the Patriarch of Constantinople, the Patriarch of Antioch, and the Patriarch of Russia all are wrong for having participated with the Pope in prayer services. And, if you are willing to go that far, then what makes you Orthodox, other than your own interpretation of the Councils and canons?
I never said they were “evil.” So please do not stretch this conversation out of whack. They do not proclaim Christ. That is the bottom line. Those organizations you mentioned proclaim Christ. That does not mean God cannot use them. He can. But God can use anything…and does. He uses cults all the time. Heck, he used a donkey, right.
Well, if you say that, “It’s all antithetical to the Church of Christ,” then you have indeed just said that it is evil. Words such as anti-Christ and the Great Whore of Babylon spring to mind because they are what is antithetical to the Church of Christ. It goes like this:
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Anti-Christ is antithetical to Christ.
The Great Whore of Babylon is antithetical to the Church of Christ.
That is why I reacted so strongly. Nothing outside the Orthodox Church contains the fullness of Truth. But, the majority of Christian sects are not so much antithetical as misguided or untaught, although a few of them are willfully disobedient. I place AA in the category of, “he who is not against us is for us.”
Well, yes I do think it is antethetical” to the Church in more ways than one. I would certainly not place AA in the same category as Protestants and such. No way! You are taught to seek a non-trinitarian god in AA. I think maybe that it could fall into the same camp as Mormonism.
“I never said they were “evil.””
Really Mike? lets take a look at;
“They bring themselves into the bondage of the devil”
From just a few posts up. That sure sounds evil to me.
I’ve run across thousands like you Mike. Thousands. Every single one of you are just the same no matter what religion you happen to pretend to be.
You see I’m a recovered alcoholic. I’ve been sober 20 years so I’ve probably heard it all, or most at least.
One of the phases of an alcoholics recovery is to take a hard look at how their inappropriate actions have hurt others. Today you get to see some of the results of yours.
You see having been in AA for 20 years I have sponsored a large number of people. Back in the early days of AA it was always suggested that a person re-connect with their church or find a new one. That has kind of fallen by the wayside. My own experience shows how that happened. I still suggest my sponsees get back to church. More times than I can count they have let slip that they are in AA and the next thing they know they are being lambasted with the same hatred and lies that you have posted here. The result is sometimes that person never makes it back to church. Whatever the result I am left picking up the pieces.
I just can’t imagine how happy satan is when you open your mouth.
Fr.Ernesto, if I have been too mean here delete this without worry.
Also, to set the record straight and help you understand where I am comming from, I would not say that AA is all together no good. It does have merits, but it must be accompanied with the gospel/church. I don’t think any bishop would disagree with that, and if he did, then Lord Have Mercey on us all!
Of course.
Fr.Meletios Webber speaks extensively on the Orthodox perspective of Alcoholics Anonymous;
http://ancientfaith.com/specials/archimandrite_meletios_webber
“Red,”
I spent time in AA myself (a very large chapter in Ca) and am not convinced of what you are saying. I am surprised that you are claiming to be “recovered” since most say they are “recovering.” That, my friend is bondage: to believe that you need non-believers outside the church in order not to fall back.
You know there is a reason that you keep hearing this kind of “hatred.” Maybe God is trying to show you that you need to woship him in both spirit and truth and let go of your idolarty of AA. It’s one thing to be attached to a group like that for some tips but it is another to be so bent on it like you are.
Not surprised at all that you are an AA washout. If you had actually read the Big Book of AA you would have learned the proper term is “Recovered”. “To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the purpose of this book”. It’s on page XIII at the very front of the book, but you didn’t even invest that much did you.
I was on skid row when the hand of AA reached out to me. I was corrupted and bankrupt in every area of my life. AA taught me how to live without alcohol. AA introduced me to a god that I was estranged from. AA taught me to pray. AA in a very literal sense brought me to the Orthodox Church. This is not Idolatry, this is a debt that I can never repay.
Well glory be to AA. I guess I will just take my washed up self back to the church and ponder on how I was healed.
Hm. I’ve also been in AA for 20 years – and I can relate to some of what Mike is saying – especially in that in many ways you must “deny Christ” in the meetings (AA is – as Meletious Webber says – “where God Himself is anonymous”). However, I do counter that there really is no extensive help of this type within the church.
Do you know of anyone who can guide a drunk through the process of repentance, inventory, quelling of the passions, and restitution of harms that a sponsor usually fills? It is certainly a lengthy Christian process, sometimes taking years. Furthermore, we’re to leave our gift at the altar and reconcile to our brother prior to partaking in the mysteries of the church, yet I don’t know of a single priest who guides one through restitution process – from identifying items to repay and making the plan, etc. They tend to focus on repentance and confession. But restitution? No. I would love to find that within the church – but our priests admittedly don’t have that kind of ongoing time, patience, nor experience. Additionally, there is the whole “non judgment” attitude found in AA that comes mainly due to the fact that they’ve all been through the symptoms – but the priests have not. And it shows when you talk to a priest who has not had any experience – they’re somewhat baffled as to what type of guidance to provide – and I’ve been re-directed back to AA.
So Mike – I hear ya, I understand what you’re saying – but unfortunately the solution is not found within the (any) Church. How do you propose this be addressed by the Church?
It is not just in the area of AA that priests do not function well, and I speak as a priest. This is why some of the “para-church” ministries have sprung up. They fill out what the Church is unable to do well. In many cases “para-church” ministries also have the advantage of “economy of scale.” That is, any given Church may not be able to do something well, but people from many parishes can. AA is simply a non-Church version of a “para-church”.
Hey Mags; not a lot of the drunks that come through the doors of AA are little sunbeams for Jesus. All of us to a man have some sort of apprehension about things spiritual and it has been like that since the beginning of AA. As a result it can sometimes be a bit contentious when speaking of God in any terms more specific than “higher power” or some such.
An interesting note about AAs beginnings is that at the very first there were two AAs. One on Ohio and one in New York. The one in Ohio was watched over closely by the very religious Dr.Bob Smith and the one in New York didn’t have anyone closely guarding the spiritual values. As a result, in the Ohio meetings, spirituality was discussed freely and in the New York meetings people did not feel as free to talk things spiritual. The results of this were glaring. The drunks that sobered up in Ohio were almost three times likely to stay sober long term than the ones in New York.
The point here is that while the newly sober drunk may have a bad, and even hostile relationship with God, that same drunk needs God more than he needs his next breath. Lets face it, the 12 steps mention alcohol once and mention God four times.
Because this is such an important part of the AA program what happens for these anti-God guys is that God becomes the elephant in the room. It’s there, It hits them at the second step, there’s no way around it, and and they try to pretend it’s not there. When we older members concede to their sensibilities and avoid talk of things spiritual we are not doing them a bit of good. We are allowing them to continue to ignore the challenge they must face if they are to stay sober. We are tasked by the 12th step to carry the message to those that still suffer and often they are right there in the meeting with us.
That being said, I don’t go all Jimmy Swaggart on them. I find the wisdom of 1 Peter 3:15 to be a good guide;
{But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:}
When the topic is appropriate and it needs to be said, I share my experience without apology. I’m may make some people uncomfortable, but I’d rather step on their toes today rather than stand by their grave tomorrow.
If sinners can’t get help from the Church then we are in big trouble. Most any Orthodox priest is indeed qualified to take a former user through the healing process, but many of them do not believe it is possible due to the hype of the unbelieving/secular “professionals” including those from AA/NA.
Psychological healing is found in Christ. It is not found in white knuckling it with likeminded people. Granted, the ex user needs brotherly love and unfortunately many liturgical churches do not offer this “kind” of love. They do indeed love the former user but they are many times afraid of them. They think (in their lofty minded expressions) that the type of healing they need is better done by the “professional.” This comes from the liberal university mindset. What they teach in universities is that the Church is not for healing but it is for ceremony. Well, ceremony that does not result in healing ministry is defective. Pastors need to bring the power of worship all the way through the lives of the parishioners; it’s called discipleship!
Many Evangelical churches disciple these people (have healing ministry). Calvary Chapel, Victory Outreach, Sovereign Grace Ministries; they all bring their people through the church for healing (some I am sure go to AA or have gone)…and they do not even have what we have in terms of worship and sacrament. If we did what they did we would be a huge attraction for former users since we also have the all powerful ministry of worship.
What it takes is the fellowship of the saints – accountability! This is what AA offers. They team you up with people that keep you accountable. There is no magic, just accountability…and yes, a chance to hear the story of others and share your stories, but there comes a time when one needs to move on from that past and into the future. When you confess your sins to a priest, they are forgiven! You don’t have to keep wallowing in it and team up with others that will remind you of it. You move forward with new goals and new friends – in Christ; friends that you can share stories of Jesus Christ with!
The very ministry of the Church is to heal the oppressed, even the physically ill. The history of the Orthodox Church shows us this and don’t let anyone tell you that the Church should not be doing this. This is evangelism. This is discipleship. The gospel heals and if you do not believe this and believe that you need the fellowship of nonbelievers then you need to stand strong and face the enemy with the truth of what is holy.
I attend AA on occasion and AA led me back to Christ of whom I knew very little about until the last few years.. I was very sick and battled back and forth with AA literature and biblical literature to the point it almost killed me.. There are a lot of things in AA literature from the Bible and parts of AA I don’t agree with.. But one thing I do agree on is that ALL THINGS work for the glory of God for those who believe in Him.. And no matter who we are we are all children of God.. You have a choice to live apart from Him or to accept Christ as your personal saviour.. A reprobate mind is what I was turned over to for choosing to live in sin.. The more sin the further we are from God… His greatest commandment is to Love.. kindness meekness.. I do belive in Jesus Christ and I share Him in AA MEETINGS! Maybe just maybe it will bring millions to Almighty God?