One of the Orthodox priests in Birmingham, Alabama is one of the priests who was on one of the translation committees for the Orthodox Study Bible. He is erudite, can speak several languages, knows his New Testament, not only in English, but also in Greek, which he can speak, read, and write in both its koine and modern forms. He loves the Lord, and believes in godly outreach. He recently hosted a three local Orthodox parishes meeting on the subject of evangelism and outreach. In other words, this is the type of priest you want around.
However, this is the Deep South, and here all too many people are conditioned to asking not only are you saved, but when were you saved. This type of question assumes a certain type of theology that believes that unless you have had a crisis experience in your life that led you to “surrender” yourself to God, then there is the strong possibility that you do not know him. Not surprisingly, any denomination that believes in infant baptism and believes that you can grow over your whole life into the service of God is a very questionable denomination. This would include not only the Orthodox, but also the Presbyterians, the Lutherans, many of the Methodists (but not all), Roman Catholics, Episcopalians (Anglicans), etc.
And so, this wonderful man who knows his Scripture, has helped to translate one of the versions of the Bible, and recently led that evangelism and outreach meeting keeps getting asked the same two questions over and over. Are you saved? And, when were you saved? And the insistence in the Deep South is that if you cannot answer those two questions, then you are obviously not saved. This is regardless of the fact that this priest told us at the evangelism meeting that he tried to explain that the Orthodox believe that we were saved; we are being saved; and we shall be saved, and thus we cannot answer the question are you saved and when were you saved.
He told us at the meeting that finally, one day, in utter frustration, he finally answered one of the people and said. “Yes, I was saved 2,000 years ago on the Cross.”
I like his answer.
Speaking as an Evangelical that happens to attend a Baptist church, I like that answer too… Spot on! There are some of us in the Evangelical world who do understand the “was saved, being saved, will be saved” aspect of a Biblical view of salvation…. Peace…
My brother, a Roman Catholic, has been giving the same answer for years!
I found this blog through a facebook friend. I think that you have misrepresented and/or unfairly judged a number of your fellow believers – particularly when you wrote “… any denomination that believes in infant baptism and believes that you can grow over your whole life into the service of God is a very questionable denomination…”. I am happy to elaborate if you are interested.
Although not perfect, the view of those who would ask “Are you saved/when were you saved” is consistent with almost any Biblical text that deals with conversion.
Actually, Greg, the NT speaks of salvation as past event (baptism, but you couldn’t prove it by most Evangelicals), ongoing process, and eventual and final consummation.
But, not all people have a conversion experience. For instance, Saint Timothy is asked by Saint Paul to remember his childhood, when he was taught the importance of the Scriptures by his Christian relatives. Saint Paul never appeals to Saint Timothy based on his personal salvation but on his childhood Christian upbringing. And, based on that upbringing, he is told to keep on in his behavior as a Christian leader.
So, while I would agree with you that in the case of first-time converts they could certainly point to a clear and specific time, the children of converts often cannot, and Saint Paul’s call to Saint Timothy appears to point to the fact that the second generation often has no clear conversion experience, but certainly has the memory and experience of a Christian upbringing. Let us remember that while many (but not all) of the New Testament texts do deal mostly with conversion experiences, they also were written about first-generation converts. When the second-generation converts begin to show up during the end of the New Testament, then Saint Paul’s language changes.
However, I would also suggest that you read my sentence on paedobaptist denominations again. Since I am a priest and baptize babies, I doubt that I was judging denominations that baptize babies.
Yet our LIturgical churches (on both sides of the Adriatic) acknowledge both types (spectacular conversion experience or gradual catechism) as valid.
But in the Bible Belt (and in general among Evangelicals) they only acknowledge the first type as being valid. The whole idea behind Evangelicalism is to “Save Souls” (make converts) and that salvation is a direct deliberate decision. (“AcceptingJesusChristAsYourPersonalLORDandSavior” — which in the context may as well be one word.) So they tunnel-vision in on that Moment of Decision to the exclusion of everything else.
Another answer: “When I was baptized.”
Or, one can, if one is a former Evangelical, give one’s “born again” bone fides, as St. Paul did concerning his past in Judaism: “I accepted Jesus as my savior at such and such an age” and go from there. This is perhaps most effective if one is dealing with “once saved always saved” folks. If nothing else, it will create some cognitive dissonance.
And so, this wonderful man who knows his Scripture, has helped to translate one of the versions of the Bible, and recently led that evangelism and outreach meeting keeps getting asked the same two questions over and over. Are you saved? And, when were you saved?
He’d better be able to recite the exact Year/Month/Day/Hour/Minute/Second and the exact words of “The Sinner’s Prayer”/magic spell he said to be Saved. And if he then runs into a Pentecostal, even that won’t count — only the Year/Month/Day/Hour/Minute/Second he was “Baptized in the Holy Spirit (TM)” and started speaking in tongues.
I usually reply, “I don’t know.” I see my conversion as happening over about a nine month span, with a five year lead time. I can’t point to a specific date and time. And the response, “When I was baptized” certainly doesn’t apply. After my conversion (Protestant/Reformed/Calvinist circles) it took four churches and two years later before I was baptized. Why a “biblical” church in my circles that claims to follow the bible wouldn’t baptize somebody who obviously had a changed life and openly professed Christ is a tragedy. So, I’ll leave the “real” answer up to God, but I try to tailor the answer, using wisdom, to the person asking. Rocking somebody’s “worldview” and getting them to think can be fun sometimes. 🙂
The term “getting saved” assumes conversion. It is completely rhetorical. At some point we need to stop “answering the fool according to his folly,” as the proverb says. I think it is good to blend to different cultures but I think the best answer for this would be something like, “I am not a convert. I was baptized into the faith and have grown since then. Christ, to me, has become more and more personal as I have grown with him.”
I like that!
How about father, if I say that I’m a constant convert? I’m a Roman Catholic, I was baptized when I was 8 months old, I was raised a Christian by my parents. I agree when you said that it’s difficult for people like me to identify the exact date of my conversion. I believe I always convert and go back to Christ every time I repent of my sins. Thank you, father.
We should all be constant converts. That is why some of the Fathers talk about repentance being a baptism of tears.
Let me clarify my initial comment. (I was trying to be brief, but instead was only confusing)
If I understand correctly, your sentence “Not surprisingly, any denomination that believes in infant baptism and believes that you can grow over your whole life into the service of God is a very questionable denomination” is what you think that to be the views of those who would ask “When were you saved?” I think that you have misrepresented what those folks believe. Every Protestant denomination that I have encountered believes “that you can grow over your whole life into the service of God”. I have heard the phrase “was saved, being saved, will be saved” for 40+ years in those circles. I have never heard any teaching in the Protestant church that differs from that. My experience covers a very wide swath of theologically and ethnically diverse Protestantism.
My second issue is one that I will readily admit that I have inferred and if it was not your intent, I stand corrected. It seems to me that you are singling out the “Are you saved?” folks for casting a skeptical eye toward those with whom they have theological differences. Do the some of people that about which you are commenting think that denominations that practice paedobaptism are questionable? Of course. But are they unique in questioning those with whom they have theological differences? Hardly. Also, many who practice paedobaptism (but who don’t believe in Baptismal regeneration) would also ask “are you saved?”
I think that my encouragement might be to believe the best of these folks. It might be that they are sincerely convinced of what they believe and are trying their best to live it out.
It’s probably not helpful to delve too deeply into our theological difference in this forum (since it is limited and impersonal), but I did want to clear up some misconceptions about evangelical beliefs.
Ahh, OK, that makes more sense now. I have questioned fellow Orthodox on other parts of this blog. It is sometimes difficult to find a good balance between reasonable questioning and unreasonable criticism.
After reading through the post a few more times, I realize that when you use the phrase “you can grow over your whole life into the service of God” you may mean something different than what I thought you meant….if you are ever in Tennessee, let me know and we can discuss this over a cup of coffee (or your beverage of choice) – my treat!
Ahh, I live in Alabama, and the priest who brought me back to the Lord lives in Nashville, so that is a real possibility.
I really enjoyed reading your bio and would be honored to share some time with you. I live in Knoxville, TN – email me if you are ever if the neighborhood.
Blessings,
Greg
The man who brought me back to God is retired in Nashville, so I do visit him every so often.
Having run into idiots of the “get your ticket to heaven punched here” genre too many times to count, I must say that for some of them there is no answer but their particular word for word answer that suffices. While they are well-meaning perhaps, they irritate me and I have to really practice loving tolerance and not get into a theological shouting match which cannot be won with such folks as they seem to not think–they just parrot. That being said, if you take time to seek out a person who is theologically aware of that particular denomination, you often get another point of view entirely about the beliefs of said sect. But then there are Orthodox idiots as well, so….