As most of you can tell, the server that hosts this blog was down, or at least unreliable, for several hours, so this is getting posted several hours later than normal.
https://homeupgradespecialist.com/j1g3umgzxqe We often get asked why the Eastern Orthodox do not use instruments in worship. While it is true that some of the Greek Orthodox will use a piano or an organ in worship, generally all Orthodox sing a capella. What it may surprise you to find out is that the use of instruments in worship was not accepted until quite recently in church history. Below are a few quotes that might surprise you.
https://mandikaye.com/blog/he0d23fx ST. THOMAS AQUINAS: “Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may not seem to Judaize.” (Thomas Aquinas, Bingham’s Antiquities, Vol. 3, page 137)
https://merangue.com/evq4pgm3b ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO: “Musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship.” (Augustine 354 A.D., describing the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius, yes THAT Athanasius.)
https://inteligencialimite.org/2024/08/07/kxhz59p MARTIN LUTHER: “The Early Reformers, when they came out of Rome, removed them [organs] as the monuments of idolatry. Luther called the organ an ensign of Baal” (John McClintock and James Strong, Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, vol. 6, Harper & Brothers, 1883, p. 762)
https://polyploid.net/blog/?p=83649no ERASMUS “We have brought into our churches certain operatic and theatrical music; such a confused, disorderly chattering of some words as I hardly think was ever in any of the Grecian or Roman theatres. The church rings with the noise of trumpets, pipes, and dulcimers; and human voices strive to bear their part with them. Men run to church as to a theatre, to have their ears tickled. And for this end organ makers are hired with great salaries, and a company of boys, who waste all their time learning these whining tones.” (Erasmus, Commentary on 1 Corinthians 14:19)
JEAN CAUVIN (JOHN CALVIN): “Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, the restoration of other shadows of the law.”
JOHN WESLEY: “I have no objection to the instruments of music in our chapels, providing they are neither seen nor heard.”
CHARLES SPURGEON: “I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery.”
https://aiohealthpro.com/2axfstew The Introduction Of The Organ Among The Baptist. This instrument, which from time immemorial has been associated with cathedral pomp and prelatical power, and has always been the peculiar favorite of great national churches, at length found its way into Baptist sanctuaries, and the first one ever employed by the denomination in this country, and probably in any other, might have been standing in the singing gallery of the Old Baptist meeting house in Pawtucket, about forty years ago, where I then officiated as pastor (1840) … Staunch old Baptists in former times would as soon tolerated the Pope of Rome in their pulpits as an organ in their galleries, and yet the instrument has gradually found its way among them…. How far this modern organ fever will extend among our people, and whether it will on the whole work a RE- formation or DE- formation in their singing service, time will more fully develop.” (Benedict, Baptist historian, Fifty Years Among Baptist, page 204-207).
JOHN SPENCER CURWEN, member of the Royal Academy of Music and President of a college in London, wrote in 1880, “Men still living can remember the time when organs were very seldom found out of the Church of England. The Methodists, Independents, and Baptists rarely had them, and by the Presbyterians they were stoutly opposed.” [John Spencer Curwen,. Studies Worship Music, (London Carwen, & Sons 1880) 179.]
Alprazolam Online Australia Despite the fact that organs had begun to enter some Roman Catholic churches as early as the 800’s AD, in many of them they were originally used for choir practice rather than for the actual Mass. But, they eventually made it all the way into the Church. Nevertheless, as late as the Council of Trent there was talk of requiring churches to stop using musical instruments in the worship. Interestingly enough, as you can see from the quotes above, many of the early Reformers and Anabaptists were against the use of instruments. Some of the Anabaptists did not begin to use them until the 19th century. And, many can still remember the upheaval in the 1960’s when guitars and other instruments were brought into the regular Mass.
https://solomedicalsupply.com/2024/08/07/gwnelee5c So, here is my question for you. Why do you assume that instruments ought to be used in worship? When we are asked why we do not use instruments in worship, behind that question is the thought that using instruments is normal and using voice only is abnormal. But, during most of church history that would not have been true. In fact, during most of church history, instruments in worship would have been forbidden. So, why do you assume that instruments ought to be used in worship?
Father,
https://blog.extraface.com/2024/08/07/mpz7mm40 How do you address the Psalms, many of which talk about praising God with various instruments (such as Psalm 150)? Also, how do you address the use of instruments in heaven, such as in Revelation, John sees the 24 elders and angels with harps, and also use of trumpets?
https://merangue.com/yu7ezx8i2 Thanks
Quincy.
https://foster2forever.com/2024/08/opvj6mou.html
https://polyploid.net/blog/?p=wj6bpzxl24 That is why I was so careful in my wording. If you notice, my final question was, “why do you assume that instruments ought to be used in worship?” Orthodox Christians run into the problem of American Christians assuming that it is pure nostalgia, or mistaken belief, that keeps us singing a capella. I wanted to dispel that notion and to point out that singing a capella not only has a significantly longer history than with instruments, but also that all three branches of Christianity had a deep suspicion of instrumentation during much of their history.
Best Place To Buy Xanax Uk I never quite say that instruments may not be used in worship. But, I will post more on this tomorrow.
https://solomedicalsupply.com/2024/08/07/e6ul4e3mad
I agree that a capella singing has a longer history that singing with instruments.
But likewise, Christians holding worship in private homes extends further back in history than holding worship services in buildings erected for said purpose.
Buy Genuine Xanax My point is that just as some things in Church doctrine took time to develop (e.g., the Trinity and infant baptism), some things in the Church’s worship practice did likewise.
https://udaan.org/p7gly5wz.php
Robert Thomas Llizo says
Can You Buy Xanax From Canada
https://inteligencialimite.org/2024/08/07/u2l9dzdgycm In my parish, a part of the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate, we use the organ in our Sunday Solemn Masses, but are usually a capella during weekday sung masses during great feasts (with the exception of the Christmas Eve Midnight Mass).
I for one would not be all that upset if we lost the organ. I would not have said this ten years ago, but I find in the ancient Ambrosian, Gregorian and Sarum chants such a sublime, heavenly quality that to add any instruments to them would not add anything…quite the contrary, in some cases. And some, when you add the organum (an ison-like harmonization), it is just heavenly. Add some Victoria and Palestrina polyphonic pieces, and there…who needs the organ?
Cheap Xanax Online Australia Obviously, this will require a well-practiced choir. But then again, all things worth doing are worth doing badly, as our good friend Chesterton reminds us.
https://foster2forever.com/2024/08/62onnnu1v9.html
https://merangue.com/l7mzanww I am glad that someone from the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochians posted. I was not sure whether the Western Rite was allowed to use the organ or not. That is another reason why I was so careful in my wording. I know that because Western Tradition is different from Eastern Tradition, there are various differences both allowed and encouraged between Eastern and Western Rite Antiochian Orthodox.
St Augustine’s, Denver, has not only organ for High Mass on ordinary Sundays, but also chamber orchestra for occasions such as Easter and Christmas Midnight Mass.
https://sugandhmalhotra.com/2024/08/07/ub09lj2dv This might be of interest. This is from What Luther Says:
“Music of every kind should praise God. A new miracle deserves a new song, thanksgiving and preaching. ….
The stringed instruments of the following psalms are to help in the singing of this new song; and Wolf Heinz and all pious, Christian musicians should let their singing and playing to the praise of the Father of all grace sound forth with joy from their organs and whatever other beloved musical instruments there are of which neither David nor Solomon, neither Persia, Greece, nor Rome knew anything.”
Buying Xanax Online
DonnL says
https://mandikaye.com/blog/7io4tbp Luther’s use of the term “music” was directed at vocals primarily. He was not a fan of instruments in worship. We must use discernment when assembling our arguments: do we embrace worship practices of Old Testament Jews or as New Testament Christians, do we set aside our personal preferences to align with what the New Testament says about the use of instruments in worship (which is nothing)?
https://eloquentgushing.com/2fqnoyoxrt How do we reconcile the God-given impulse to create music to honor God against what the NT does NOT say about the use of instruments for worship? The very picture of one man wrestling!!
https://inteligencialimite.org/2024/08/07/dl73gtl5dh Blessings all…
https://transculturalexchange.org/77p60p8gfif
Steve Scott says
https://udaan.org/kcucfqiy.php
“So, why do you assume that instruments ought to be used in worship?”
I don’t. 🙂
I think we should use organs. Not Allen organs, but pipe organs. Why? Because Luther and Calvin, two great destroyers of souls, did not approve.
That must be why J. S. Bach then had to become the “fifth evangelist”: to dispel Luther’s mistaken view of pipe organs. Do not know who did it for the Calvinists, but know it’s been done.
For the Calvinists it took until almost the 20th century in various parts. The Scottish Calvinists were known to not use instruments in parts of Scotland until the 20th century. The Calvinists followed the regulative principle of worship. That is, that which is not commanded for worship is forbidden. Calvin considered instruments to be on the same level as icons, and considered both of them to be forbidden. People would be surprised just how many Reformation Christians did NOT believe in musical instruments.
Calvin certainly had an effect in stifling organs in Switzerland after the middle of the 16th century. Yet some of the Psalms do mention the use of various instruments. And I would think the standards of Romans 14 and 15 could be faithfully applied thus to any instruments used. If is dedicated to God, or if its absence is dedicated to God, both should apply, and those in each camp should let go and let God with those in the other camp who are also servants of our Lord and Savior.
I do kindly like to bring to everyone attention something that is becoming a frequent occurrence in some Orthodox Churches in the NY Metro area that makes me not want to attend Sunday services. I hope that is not the case in your district. I leave with a major headache because of this background airplane-like machine sound, called “iso-kratis”, which is a new product coming form Greece. If the organ is bad, this is worse! It takes away the clear sound of the human voice and really is a terrible addition – probably non-canonical and non-Orthodox. The Ison, as you know, is a way for upcoming chanters to train their voices. So, to replace this Church Economy with a machine that produces a very unreal and unappealing sound is, in my opinion, not the right way to go. I wonder are we going to see the future chanter be a DJ like chanter that use sound affects in the Divine Liturgy like in entertainment? The Isokratis sounds are simulated sounds that lead to a FALSE REALITY! Orthodoxy is about what is real and natural. Our music is also an Icon. An acoustic Icon! We need not alter the acoustic Icons the way we would not alter the visual. Though this issue is not a dogmatic issue; however, just like other past small additions lead to loosing critical pieces in the worship, so will this. Example, we added pews in the entire church and now hardly anyone does prostrations! The priest calls out “Come let us warship and fall down before Christ” and hardly any knee bents. So, the Isoktratis will make us loose the real Ison, the natural Ison from the Byzantine sound. We will also loose the opportunity to train those that wish to learn to chant with a Byzantine efos. Finally, please understand that I am only saying these things out of love for the Church, out of desire or preserve authenticity, and care for the beautiful & Godly art form of our musical heritage. I pray that such phenomena like the Isokratis will go away. Please consider my thoughts and please do not let this anomaly continue.
There are some who support the usage of an organ because it makes the praying and divine service less boring. If for these people praying is boring, than they might consider not praying at all. One may recommend them to go see a musical play, a movie, or just go fishing. A prayer is a dialogue with God, asking him for forgiveness and salvation… A person might just imagine this situation: “You come to your mother or father to ask them for forgiveness for something”. Does one need a guitar or an accordion in hand to do that? Why? If in one’s request for forgiveness (a prayer) there is not enough sincerity, will the musical accompaniment will be able to compensate that? No, it will probably mask that insincerity, but not form the one to whom one is praying. What about us why should we cheat ourselves?
In the Orthodoxy a human being is looked at as the most perfect instrument ,that must be tempered. For that, just like a guitar or any other instrument there needs to be a long and strenuous practice. That practice does not require one’s personal will but a will of God. This practice requires humility, forgiveness, not being hypocoristic but to honestly look at oneself as the first of the sinners. Just like our faithful grandmothers taught us: Praying, fasting, and suffering. Then there will be no desire “to better” the divine service that was commanded to us by the holy fathers, the best of the representative of the church, which was founded by our God Lord Jesus Christ himself.
To determine why Catholics and Protestants use musical instruments in the churches, that should be discussed separately. In the end, if they have established such tradition for centuries, let them keep it, since the purity of the church they chose not to keep. Looking back at the history of our Orthodox church it is difficult to imagine that during the divine service there will be playing of an organ, a guitar, or a violin orchestra. That the Holy Communion will be accommodated by Rock music, like it is done in certain Protestant sects. Orthodox chants reflect the Orthodox life, a godlike life, a life with God. Orthodox chants help us to undergo that or the other event of the earthly life of Jesus Christ. Those are the gloomy chants of the holy week and those of full joy like the Paschal chants. Orthodoxy is not just emotional, it is first of all spirituality, that unity with the holy spirit. The real Orthodox chants like the Byzantine or Old Slavonic famous chants and others ideally represent the essence of Orthodoxy; mainly unity, secondly freedom in all and love. Early fathers saw instrumental music to lead to dancing and other passions that destroy the humility of the Christian life.
St. Basil the Great says: “Of the necessary to life which furnish a concrete result there is carpentry, which produces the chair; architecture, the house; shipbuilding; the ship, tailoring, the garment, forging, the blades. Of useless arts there is harp playing, dancing, flute playing of which, when the operation cease, the result disappears with it. And indeed, according to the word of the apostle, the result of these is destruction.”
John Chrysostom says: “Marriage is accounted and honorable thing both by us and by those without ; and it is honorable. But when marriages are solemnized such a number of ridiculous circumstances take place as ye shall hear of immediately; because the most part, possessed and beguiled by custom, are not even aware of their absurdity, but need others to teach them. For dancing, and cymbals, and flutes, and shameful words and songs, and drunkenness, and revellings, and all the Devil’s great help of garbage is then introduced.”
“David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh is no longer lust against the spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable paths, than will you create a spiritual melody.” John Chrysostom exposition of psalms 41, (381-398A.D.)
Clement of Alexandria says: “Leave the pipe to the shepherd the flute to the men who are in fear of goods and are intent on their idol-worshiping. Such musical instrument must be excluded form our wineless feasts, for they are more suited for beast and for the class of men that is least capable of reason than for men…In general, we must completely eliminate every such base sight or sound-in a word, everything immodest that strikes, the senses (for this is an abuse of the senses)-if we would avoid pleasures that merely fascinate the eye or ear, and emasculate.”
Both Origen and Eusebius explain he Psalm 33:2, “Give thanks to the Lord on the harp; with the ten stringed psaltery chant His praises” as the harp meaning the soul, and the ten-stringed psaltery being a body with 5 senses and 5 faculties.
Eusebius (as historical witness): “Of old at eh time those of the circumcision were worshiping with symbols and types it was not inappropriate to send up hymns to God with the psalterion and cithara and to do this on Sabbath days… We render our hymn with a living psalterion and a living cithara with spiritual songs. The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument. Accordingly in all the churches of God, united in soul and attitude, with one mind and in agreement of faith and piety we send up a unison melody in the words of the Psalms.” (Commentary on Psalms 91)
All of the beauty of our church services is concluded in texts of the holy chants. The text, is only capable of becoming possession of the praying when it is clearly pronounced by the human voice. Sounds of an organ undoubtedly darken and hide from the praying all the beauty and loftiness incorporated by the song-creating thoughts. From this point of view, besides harm an organ is incapable of bringing anything else into an Orthodox church services. Instead of introducing an organ into an Orthodox church to falsely improve the singing, we should put all of our efforts in to raising singing in the church that is common to the whole people. Only this path will bring our people to conscious participation in the church service, development of our choir. For two thousand years the Orthodox church has functioned without an organ and to bring in such an instrument into the church divides people. Psychology of the Orthodox people is unable to deal with such a shock. The motives of these heretic renovations are unclear. Have we not learned our history, that any apostasy does not lead to anything good and positive. Human singing involves a soul, which brings depth and mobility to the Orthodox chants thus making choir a higher form of art.
The early church had no electricity either. No great cathedrals, etc. The mission of the church is to reach those who need Christ. Music is a language and it is universal. There certainly is no issue of us appearing to be “Jewish” by using music. If we are to touch this generation in America with the Gospel, why ignore a common language? The Amish stopped at a certain point and have isolated themselves. The Orthodox should not isolate themselves in ethnic and cultural ghettos, but evangelize in the language of the land. Praise be to God!
The Churches of Christ (a Protestant denomination) sings a capella as well.
I am not familiar with the isokratis. I have heard of a device that is described as a “ison machine”. I heard a reording of someone chanting with a machine like that. The ison tones were very artificial and annoying. It was kind of distracting, even thought he cantor’s voice was not unpleasant to hear. If there is a case where it is necessary to make an ison drone with some kind of instrument, it shouldn’t sound like a synthesizer from the 1980’s. Those were fun, but not in Church. There is a device from the Middla Ages called a hurdy-gurdy, and it makes a very pleasant drone. I dislike electronic organs for the same reason. Most of them sound artificial. If we’re going to adopt the use of any kind of instrument, it should be a real, authentic, artistic creation, not a cheap, artificial version.
Dear brother Nikolaos:
Many Psalms exhort the use of instruments. Jesus said nothing against them.
Be well.
AWESOME RESPONSE!!!! I LOVE HYMN ACAPELLA, BUT I JUST WISH A MICROPHONE WAS IN THE CHOIR ROOM. IT WOULD MAKE IT LOUDER 😀 ONLY THOSE WITH AN OPERA VOICE CAN REALLY NOT BE AFRAID TO HYMN WITHOUT A MICROPHONE. BECAUSE IF YOU NOTICE ORTHODOX CHURCHES ARE ACOUSTIC
I am a member of Christ’s church and have always been taught that to use instruments is “not authorized.” The passages used in the argument (Eph.5:19 and Col.3:16) are said to prohibit instruments. In these passages we are instructed to make the melody “in our heart.” Well, if we can have no instruments because the melody is “in the heart,” then by using logical rules of grammar… the “singing” should be kept there as well. It would be quite odd to see a room full of people all standing there silently…”singing in their hearts.” I am still worshiping with no instruments, but it really seems that it was more of an “opinion of the church fathers” to keep us distinguished from the Jews and the pagans. I think we would all agree that this is no longer an issue– just like the evergreen tree used in the celebration of the birth of our dear Lord (by many Christians) no longer has the original pagan meaning that it had thousands of years ago.
The Psalms definitely used instruments– and Paul sanctions the singing of psalms. (I realize it says…”sing.”) But, Revelation speaks of harps. Why would the Holy Spirit confuse those who have just discontinued the use of instruments with this imagery? (Just wondering- not being argumentative.) Also, wine is considered off-limits by many Christians (also mentioned in Revelation.) I agree that alcohol CAN be abused. (Just like coffee, sugar, food, prescription drugs, etc. etc. etc.) But, it is not the wine or the instrument, or the doughnut that is evil…it is the heart of man and how he abuses these things that is the crux of the matter. (imho) More important than anything…is how do we use our words? For by OUR WORDS we will be judged and the words of a man show what are in his heart. I do not use instruments, but I am not going to condemn those that do as I once did. I do not drink alcohol, but I am not going to condemn those that do as I once did. God knows our motives. God knows our hearts.
Your note lets me make a couple of points. One is that I do not condemn either. When I wrote this back seven years ago now, I was trying to explain, not condemn. My attitude is still the same.
The second point would be that when one looks at what has happened since music in the Church went instrumental, one sees an increasing tendency to have the musician, then the instruments plus the choir, then the music group take over the worship. Thus, one could understand the Early Christian attitude toward worship from the viewpoint of the danger of takeover by the musicians. It is important to note that Christians have never condemned musical instruments in any way. One only needs to look at the history of instrumental music to see that. It was instrumental use in worship that troubled them.
The third point would be that this brings up the subject of Christian history again. One can, and should, quote Scripture. However, the utter lack of instrumental music in the Early Church in any region or country says that their interpretation was different. We need to stop and ask ourselves why rather than simply saying that they were wrong. It is too easy to say that anything with which we disagree in the Early Church is simply their desertion of Scripture or of the Gospel or [fill in the blank]. It is harder to do the work to try to understand what they were trying to communicate.
Thank you sister Lucinda. Very well argued. And your closing strikes me as a restatement of Romans 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. Which I believe above all connects back to Jesus’ remark about our beams and others’ motes.