So, before I start out in discussing the Orthodox view of the Virgin Mary, let me do something different. Let me list with which doctrines of the Virgin Mary both the Reformers and I would agree. Now, here is my point. If one disagrees with the Orthodox Church, with the Roman Catholic Church, and with the Reformers on these doctrines, then one should no longer say that it is a Protestant/Catholic problem. Rather, it is a problem between Anabaptist-type thinking and the rest of Christianity. This does not mean that the thinking is necessarily wrong. But, it does mean that broad claims about Protestant vs Orthodox/Catholic should be avoided.
I agree with the Reformers that:
1. Mary is Ever-Virgin — So stated the Second Helvetic Confession. So stated Jean Cauvin (John Calvin), even going so far as to say that those who say otherwise are “ignorant.” Martin Luther also agreed that she was Ever-Virgin.
2. Mary is the Mother of God — the Lutheran Formula of Concord states, “On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed virgin, did not conceive a mere, ordinary human being, but a human being who is truly the Son of the most high God, as the angel testifies. He demonstrated his divine majesty even in his mother’s womb in that he was born of a virgin without violating her virginity. Therefore she is truly the mother of God and yet remained a virgin.”
3. Mary is to be honored — I have tried to phrase this most carefully, because Jean Cauvin was quite clear that, on no account, should we ask for the intercession of Mary or of any saint. He was also quite clear that we are not to “venerate” her or any icon of her. Nor does she have any part in the formal events of salvation. Nevertheless, he makes a very interesting statement, “To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son”. Notice that when we think of “the blessing brought to us in Christ” he says that we also think of Mary. Both Luther and Calvin highly honored Mary, and expected her to be highly honored by all of us. Again, let me be careful, they opposed certain doctrines about Mary, but they still maintained an extremely high regard for her as “blessed among women.”
4. The saints are to be honored — this is actually a subset of the point above, since Mary is one of the saints, but it allows me to quote the Second Helvetic Confession again. “THE DUE HONOR TO BE RENDERED TO THE SAINTS. At the same time we do not despise the saints or think basely of them. For we acknowledge them to be living members of Christ and friends of God who have gloriously overcome the flesh and the world. Hence we love them as brothers, and also honor them; yet not with any kind of worship but by an honorable opinion of them and just praises of them. We also imitate them. For with ardent longings and supplications we earnestly desire to be imitators of their faith and virtues, to share eternal salvation with them, to dwell eternally with them in the presence of God, and to rejoice with them in Christ.” Now, here is the sad part for American Evangelicalism. Because of an over-reaction to the Roman Church, American Evangelicalism has lost a true appreciation of the saints, no longer reading their lives, and no longer imitating them, as even the Calvinists insist should be done. Instead, American Evangelicals have become consumers of self-help books or books that preach a quick journey from sinner to well-balanced, successful (uhm, and rich) Christianity.
Now, I am finally ready to discuss those doctrines in which Orthodoxy differs from Protestantism. Please do post responses, as I think this is a topic that could use wide input.
Fr. Ernesto,
Thank you so much for the helpful posts on the Theotokos. I look forward to spending some time reading and pondering your thoughts as I would like to have a more intelligent position on this issue.
Based on what you have written it does appear that there is significant difference between the Orthodox and Catholic positions. I continue to believe that the Catholic position goes way too far on this issue. For instance, it is one thing to honor and celebrate Mary, but pray to her? It seems to me that to pray to Mary assumes that she is able to not only hear all of these prayers but in some way respond to them as well. How can she do this without having divine attributes, such as omnipresence???
This along with the co-mediatrix and co-redemptrix issues make the whole Marian thing very troubling to me.
God’s blessings to you.
Fr. Ernesto, I read your last posting and this one with obvious interest. Never having looked at Mariology at all, I was surprised with the rich variety and depths of belief. There is, probably, a book out there that outlines the gradual evangelical/anabaptist movement away from special attributes for Mary until we have reached, in the present day, the evangelical/anabaptist belief that she was simply a virgin who bore Jesus, and went on to have a normal life with other children and died the same as anyone else.
With saying that incredibly long sentence, we evangelicals all know we have departed from the beliefs of Luther and Calvin. Their writings are simply that, writings, and we would like to feel like we ground everything in scripture. Tradition, to most of us, is unreliable.
My original point was to find out how the Orthodox church treats Mary. From a simple virgin vessel (although to be honored) to the RC dogma of a person without original sin, who remained sinless, a perpetual virgin who was taken to heaven without physical death and remains as a mediator for us to this day. This is a huge difference in beliefs. Personally, I don’t care if someone believes she was an ever-virgin. Scripture could be interpreted that way. But, when someone believes she is an intercessor and was born without original sin, that is a stumbling block for me. Personally. Only me.
On a conciliatory note, I agree fully that we have trashed our heritage for the next new thing. We know next to nothing about our own church history, but can recite church growth business principles easily. We have a “great cloud of witnesses” that we can draw on for inspiration, instead of relying on…well. That’s why all evangelicals would profit from reading Fr. Ernesto’s blog.
I’ve gotten a lot out of moving back into the richer past of Christian history from the sterility of modern evangelicalism. I’ve come a long way since I though Lent was just something in the pocket of my jeans.
I was not saying that one has to agree with Luther and Calvin. 🙂 I was simply pointing out that there is a lack of historical memory that makes it easier for us to misunderstand each other.
Fr. Ernesto,
I would generally agree with 2-4, but not with 1. I get the sense that most Protestants I know would not disagree with 2-4, but wouldn’t make them an active part of life.
Sounds like there is a future post that I should do on Ever-Virgin. But, yes, it is true that in America it is doubted that Mary is Ever-Virgin. In fact, it is not only doubted, there are people who regularly argue that she had other children, and that to believe otherwise is wrong.
As a follow-up to my first comment, let me say once again that I appreciate you taking the time to address this subject. You make a good point in distinguishing the Protestant from the Anabaptist view. This is new to me. I also agree with you that American Evangelicals have over-reacted to this issue of the saints in general be they biblical characters, church fathers, etc. It seems that we have severed ourselves from the moorings of our own history. As such, we no longer appreciate it, study it; we maybe even despise it. I speak from experience.
Of your points above #1 is still the shakiest in my own mind. I guess ones mind must be made up on the basis of history / confessions rather than Scripture itself. For me, that would make this issue more a matter of conscience rather than dogma.
What do you think? Am I still not seeing something:-)
Blessings to you.
Hey Charlie, this may surprise you, but you are not required to believe that Mary is Ever-Virgin in order to be Orthodox. Hmm, of course you may stand out like a sore thumb. And, people may look at you as though you had two heads. But, there are no “penalties” for not believing that she was Ever-Virgin, nor would you be rebuked for believing that, unless you began to make that an issue over which people divide.
🙂 I have now given you a hint of something that is coming up in a post that is a clear difference between Roman Catholic and the Orthodox.
Just responding to the whole “She has no formal part in salvation…”
Excuse me?! The Theotokos does have a role! She gave birth to the Christ- to Our Lord. While it is true that she wasn’t the one whom accomplished and won for us our salvation (that would be Jesus), saying she has no role is like saying Israel had no part in God’s redemptive plan. If Blessed Mary hadn’t given birth to the Lord, I don’t exactly know how else Christ would’ve come into the world…
It just seems odd to me to make the statement “She has no formal part in salvation” is a logical fallacy.
Of course the Theotokos has a role. Notice that in point three I am summarizing what Cauvin (Calvin) said, not what the Orthodox say. LOL.
I apologize- I should’ve been clearer. I too was commenting on Calvin’s view. LOL, my bad XD
Greetings, found you via an Orthodox friend’s facebook.
Enjoyed the analysis you give from the Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant point of view.
I have some Anabaptist and Wesleyan background.
On Mary’s role in our salvation, how would we be saved without her having willingly born and raised the one who is our Saviour? Clearly a vital role there.
On Mary’s perpetual virginity, I believe the Scriptures are wise and make us wise. They are silent. I find it a bit odd for grown men to speculate about someone’s virginity. Teenage boys, yes.
On the matter of saints, the bible indicates that saints are those God makes holy. They would be those who are in Christ. Mary belongs there, so do I. Saints indeed ought to pray for other saints. I don’t believe we are taught to pray to them in the bible or in the new testament church. Indeed, the extreme of that extrabiblical teaching is to diminish prayer to God. I recognize that there are saints throughout history who are noble examples, and I desire to honour and learn from them. In the final analysis, anything praiseworthy and instructive ultimately goes back to God who through Christ and the Holy Spirit made them who they became. I believe they would be the first to say this.