https://nedediciones.com/uncategorized/6k8095xfo Well, we finally get to the subject for which various of you are waiting, the intercession of the saints. But, actually to begin correctly, I need to divide that phrase into two related phrases, the intercession of the saints and the invocation of the saints. What is the difference between the two phrases? The first phrase speaks to whether the saints in glory look down upon us and intercede for us. The second phrase speaks to whether we can ask the saints for help, to intercede before God for us. That is, it may be possible to say that the angels and saints in glory do pray for us and intercede for us while, at the same time, saying that this does not mean that we can invoke them, ask them to pray for us with the expectation that they will be able to hear us and respond.
https://solomedicalsupply.com/2024/08/07/okcjistum The Book of Concord of the Lutherans contains within it the Defense of the Augsburg Confession written by Philip Melanchthon. In Article XXI he says, “Besides, we also grant that the angels pray for us. For there is a testimony in Zech. 1, 12, where an angel prays: O Lord of hosts, how long wilt Thou not have mercy on Jerusalem? Although concerning the saints we concede that, just as, when alive, they pray for the Church universal in general, so in heaven they pray for the Church in general.” In other words, the Lutheran position is that both angels and those who have died are in heaven praying and interceding for us right now. What the Lutherans deny is that we can call upon them for help: “Moreover, even supposing that the saints pray for the Church ever so much, yet it does not follow that they are to be invoked; although our Confession affirms only this, that Scripture does not teach the invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid.” Did you catch the difference between intercession and invocation?
So, I would hope that all of us believe in the intercession of the angels and saints. It is found in places such as the Book of Zechariah and the Book of Revelation. And, the Lutherans certainly affirm that the angels and saints intercede for us. Did you ever think that an Orthodox priest would be supporting the Lutherans? But, may we ask them for help? The formal way of saying that is, can we invoke them?
https://sugandhmalhotra.com/2024/08/07/ufr6rb11id8 Let me back up a moment to intercession again. The angel carrying the bowl of incense which is filled with the prayers of the saints is very clearly both interceding and performing the role of a mediator. This is why Melanchthon conceded the intercession of the saints. This is also why the Lutherans do not use the verse about there being only one mediator between God and man as applying to this situation. The context of the verse about only one mediator is that of salvation in its narrow sense.
How To Buy Xanax In Australia In the narrow sense, of salvation there may be only one mediator. But, in the broader sense of the Christian life, there are many mediators both here on earth and in heaven. They are intercessors, and the Book of Revelation very clearly shows an angel standing before God, bringing the prayers of the saints before God and, by his mediation/intercession bringing them as a sweet scent before the Lord. In fact, the intercession/mediation proves to be quite effective and that same angel is now told to “throw” those prayers back to earth, now filled with the power of God and able to both accomplish God’s will. And, wow, do they accomplish God’s will!
The souls under the altar are clearly interceding for those who are dying for the sake of the Gospel. They ask, “How long, O Lord?” and receive an answer directly from God as to what must happen first, but also the assurance that God has heard them and that he will not allow the suffering to go on indefinitely. Again, though the answer is to wait, nevertheless, this is a picture of a successful intercession/mediation in favor of those who are suffering by those who have already died.
In fact, the Book of Job has this interesting verse within it. The NIV translates it as:
https://mandikaye.com/blog/1g08ecns01 Yet if there is an angel on his side as a mediator, one out of a thousand . . . then his flesh is renewed like a child’s; it is restored as in the days of his youth. He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God’s face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state.
Order Xanax Online Canada That is a description of intercessory prayers by the angels. But, more than that, notice that intercessory prayer is considered the same as being a mediator, in the Book of Job. And, notice that it has the most interesting structure. Someone is praying, then if that someone has an angel at his side interceding, then the person finds favor with God, and is restored. Hmm, the only question is whether the person invoked the angel or not because, certainly, that is a picture of successful intercession/mediation.
https://foster2forever.com/2024/08/g2e9tgz0vd0.html Tomorrow, I will attempt to answer the question about invocation. But, I hope I have given you sufficient Scriptural evidence to have you believe in the intercession of the saints and angels.
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Craig says
https://www.completerehabsolutions.com/blog/5z3mkmefte This is great info. Love it all. Thank you!
Regarding Job, who says Elihu is right in what he states? Isn’t he simply stating what *he* believes?
Thanks!
Craig
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Fr. Ernesto Obregón says
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https://eloquentgushing.com/y0l47y3sq74 In this case, since what he says parallels in structure what the angels do in the Zechariah and Revelation verses, I think we are safe in accepting it.
This Lutheran has always been taught that Christ was our sole Mediator. And that the scriptures bear this out.
This Lutheran isn’t too crazy about Melancthon, anyway, since he was in tight with Erasmus and tried to water down a lot Luther’s theology with his (Melancthon’s) Aristotilian views.
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Fr. Ernesto Obregón says
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https://mandikaye.com/blog/9lpweu5g However, the phrase I quoted came from the Book of Concord, first publication in 1580, which was the agreed upon compendium of Lutheran doctrine. It was a compendium agreed upon by the electors, the princes, the theologians, the pastors, yes, the bishops (of those Lutherans that kept bishops) of the Lutherans of that time. It is the book that has been published for centuries as the compendium of Lutheran doctrine. I would suggest that the majority of Lutherans in the world would still consider what the Book of Concord says on the intercession of the saints to be acceptable doctrine.
https://merangue.com/nu84yst Hm, note that I also quote Scripture and explained why the sole Mediator verse, in context, only applies to salvation when considered in its narrow definition. Otherwise, none of us could even dare to agree to pray for each other, as the Scriptures also command, as intercession and mediation are considered to be synonymous terms in Scripture.
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Fr. Ernesto,
Alprazolam Sale Online Good job on the intercession issue. My real problem is with “invoking” the saints as I mentioned in a previous comment. I look forward to your treatment of it tomorrow.
Thank you again for the time that you have put into addressing this.
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Fr. Ernesto Obregón says
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Hey Charlie, I am getting there, but it was important to clear out the brush so that people could see the trees!
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https://merangue.com/h84i8yf Thanks Fr. Ernesto for the reply,
The difference, if I followed you correctly (and I may not have – I’m tired!), is that you pointed to the Job text as support for *mediation*, whereas you pointed to the angel and Melancthon’s support as evidence for *intercession*. If the angel and Revelation only support intercession, and the Job passage is needed to support mediation, then can the Job passage by itself support that? Am I making sense? (If not, please ignore me and I’ll re-read this more thoroughly tomorrow!)
https://transculturalexchange.org/49u8zwokj0 I guess, why go to Job if the other passages are enough to support mediation.
https://udaan.org/kpjzanxwkup.php Thanks again!
– Craig
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Fr. Ernesto Obregón says
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I simply see the words as two sides of the same coin. When we say that Our Lord Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man, we are saying that he intercedes for us before God. The Job verse is interesting, whether Elihu is right or wrong in his argument (actually, he was wrong) because he uses the word mediate rather than intercede. Job, in answer, does not challenge that an angel can mediate/intercede. Job challenges that the innocent do not suffer, but never questions mediation/intercession by an angel.
Xanax Australia Buy Online However, I went to a thesaurus to make sure and the synonyms for mediator are: go-between, intercessor, intermediary, intermediator. Please note that a thesaurus sees those terms as being synonyms of each other. That is why my comment was that one cannot use the “only mediator between God and man” outside the very bounds of a very narrowly defined salvation.
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Craig says
Shop Xanax Online Thank you. Looking forward to more of these posts!!
Craig
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William says
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Orthodox writers also point out that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man because he is the only person who is by nature God and by nature man. He mediates the natures. This explanation takes Christ’s role as mediator out of the realm of intercessory prayer. If “mediator” were equal to “intercessor,” and Christ being the only mediator between God and man meant that he were the only intercessor, then we would have to stop praying for each other, I think.
My point, you said it slightly better.
Among Job’s ‘friends’ Elihu is NOT rebuked by God. He is not simply stating an opinion, like the others. By not rebuking him, God Himself may be saying Elihu is right. I believe Elihu is referring to one’s ‘ángel guardian’, who really is
‘an angel, a mediator, one of the thousand,
to declare to man what is right for him,
and he is merciful to him, and says,
‘Deliver him from going down into the pit;
I have found a ransom…’ (Job 33:23-24).
The ‘ransom’ to which he refers that is the basis of God’s mercy, is, of course, the atonement made by Christ, the Redeemer of the world.