https://oevenezolano.org/2024/08/p02ioz6 Recently, InternetMonk asked a question of the several of us that form his panel of Liturgical Gangstas. The questions is listed below and then my answer. I know that there will be discussion on his blog, and there should be. However, I know that there are people who read this blog who do not necessarily read his blog. So, I post it here so that you, also, can comment on it. There have been a couple of edits made on it for this blog.
https://nedediciones.com/uncategorized/65yvyk2onp [Edit: a couple of comments that I received after I crafted and sent my answer said that icons were a greatly misunderstood part of our Holy Tradition. But, when I asked the InternetMonk, he said that he wanted an answer from “us” not from misunderstandings by outsiders. I had, at first, assumed the same thing as those who mentioned icons to me, that InternetMonk had wanted the outside viewpoint. I will say that I agree with the writers that our view of icons is vastly misunderstood by those who look in from outside.]
https://solomedicalsupply.com/2024/08/07/4uuqlziub What is the most misunderstood positive thing about your tradition, and the most ignored weakness of your tradition? Of the five traditions represented, from whom do you believe your tradition could learn the most?
Internet Monk’s question was quite a thought provoker for me. In fact, I ended up throwing the questions out to a few friends, who included a layman who is a professor at an university, a nun, and a couple of priests. That was a first for me. What surprised me was the fair amount of similarity of thought expressed in the three responses I received. I was expecting more variety and expecting that I would then distill their thought down into an answer. But, instead, I received a large amount of agreement.
https://mandikaye.com/blog/1dc91fodt Baptists are the tradition from whom we could learn the most, but in only one area. The area? The dynamic preaching that is often embodied in the best of the Baptist tradition. It not only encompasses a serious desire to communicate God’s Word to the hearer, but also a serious desire to have people respond to God in a life-changing way. That is, the Baptists, when at their best, often offer a winsome balance between teaching and a dynamic call to change. No serious Baptist preacher can stand in the pulpit without ending a sermon by asking the hearer to reflect on what this means for their life, and to reflect on what they must change in order to bring their life into accord with the teaching that they have just received. Not all Baptists live up to this high standard, but, when they do, God’s Word truly comes to earth in the spoken word. It is at those times when it almost seems as though preaching has become the eighth sacrament.
You might think, then, that I would say that the most ignored weakness (by us) is our lacks in the area of preaching. But, actually, all our seminaries are working to improve the levels of preaching within our tradition. We are not ignoring it; we are cognizant of it. No, I would say that our most ignored weakness is the way in which Western thinking has, inevitably, worked itself in on our people. No, I do not mean outward things like watching TV, or using iPods, etc. Those are merely external. No, I mean the creeping agnosticism which is so prevalent in modern First-World Western cultures. It is that thinking which causes your mind to “switch gears” once you “leave church” and to adopt a practical agnosticism. What do I mean? Watch a professional baseball game some time. Whenever a Latino player comes up, he crosses himself before taking the plate. There is a consciousness that God is present in all aspects of life, even sports. But, in the USA, we denigrate that by asking whether it is appropriate to pray during sports. After all, why would God answer a prayer in favor of one team and not another? But, in asking those questions we feed an agnosticism that, little by little, removes God from this bit or that bob of our life, until all that is left is Sunday morning, maybe Wednesdays, and maybe some little volunteer work here or there. We Orthodox have also been infected by that disease. We make fun of pious practices as though they were mere superstitions rather than the outworking of a consciousness that God is present everywhere and in every aspect of our lives. Not every “tradition” can or should be defended, for instance, I really do not believe that Jesus has imprinted his face on many tacos. But, when we take down our “home altars,” when we lose the prayers before meals, when we forget the night prayer before sleeping, and, yes, when we fail to cross ourselves at important times in our lives, we show the result of the creeping agnosticism which has so thoroughly infected the USA.
Finally, the most misunderstood positive thing about the Orthodox is our worship. I am now not talking about misunderstood just by us, but misunderstood, even more, by those who are not Orthodox. A creeping agnosticism leads to creeping doubt that God is present. Our worship is mystical. It is the place where we encounter God, not simply in symbol, or in liturgy, or in litanies, etc., but rather, it is the place where we truly encounter God, where we are present with Him in the heavenly worship. But, a creeping agnosticism leads to a lack of faith that there is such an encounter occurring. A creeping agnosticism leads to a concentration on the details rather than a simple acceptance of the whole of it. This does not mean that we ignore the details. We have scholars aplenty who can intimately describe every detail of our Divine Liturgy, and where they wish it would be somewhat different. We have bishops who meet to discuss appropriate wording, appropriate acculturation, etc. But, when we step into the Divine Liturgy, we put the scholarly world aside and simply enter in. The details no longer matter. They will be worked out in the proper place and at the proper time. Now is not that time. Now is the time to enter in and simply be with the Father, who is from everlasting, His Only-Begotten Son, together with his all-holy and good and life-giving Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.
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DaveMc says
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https://blog.extraface.com/2024/08/07/5v6m9hw0 As usual, Michael has posed a valid question that is simple, yet tough.
https://inteligencialimite.org/2024/08/07/ilsnyd42k1c I’m not so sure about the Baptist preaching. “Dynamic” preaching in the pattern of the 2nd Great Awakening of the 1st half of the 19th century was designed to evoke emotion. This was the key to the revivals of that era. Protestants are getting somewhat away from that practice, particularly in the seeker churches. Getting the message across is the important thing, whether you holler or simply speak.
https://homeupgradespecialist.com/6gzbk5cj48 The “invitation” or simply the call to think and ponder on what has been spoken is also going by the wayside. I think it’s something worth doing, but not to the extent of singing 43 verses of Just as I Am to sweat that person down the aisle like the evangelist type churches used to do. We’ve abandoned all of that, again, in the seeker churches and their ilk.
https://sugandhmalhotra.com/2024/08/07/zob6bff As for misunderstandings about the Orthodox church, the problem might be the mysticism itself, rather than the icons. You did a good job of explaining about the mystical side of icons in a previous post. As illustrated above, the modern seeker churches pretty much toss mysticism (and liturgy) out the window in order to purify the experience, making it feel more like (their idea of) the early church and also palatable to the non-Christian. The agnosticism problem is present in every church, in all cultures, in all time periods.
As an aside, the scary part of the modern seeker church is that it changes it’s beliefs over time, depending on the pastor’s emotional level, his maturity, the latest book he read and perhaps even what he had for lunch. Stability is the biggest drawing card for the Orthodox church, in my opinion.
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Bryan says
https://homeupgradespecialist.com/mhsmxyj Well said Fr. Ernesto. I do have my own concerns about too much emphasis on “dynamic preaching.” Good teaching certainly has its place but only when it doesn’t supersede the Eucharist, the reading of the Scriptures, etc. Having grown up as a Southern Baptist, I think I can critique Baptists just a bit and it’s been my experience that most Baptist churches place the main emphasis on the preaching. Certainly, we all have things to learn!
Peace and blessings.
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Fr. Ernesto Obregón says
https://foster2forever.com/2024/08/wxdrr67dhq.html
https://udaan.org/g8mrq0i0l.php Dave and Bryan, living in the Deep South, I am very aware of how much “Just As I Am” has become a standing joke for multiple unceasing altar calls. I think that, in many ways, that response is the result of trying to turn dynamic preaching into yet another formula for success. That, also, is the main problem of many seeker churches. They look for formulas for success rather than on seeking union with God.
https://polyploid.net/blog/?p=hxkjrl6 However, our problem is at the other end. Too many of us adopted the old pattern of the five minute formulaic formalistic sermon, rather than a struggle with the Word of God and with the Spirit of God in order to produce a sermon with which the Father would be pleased. That has mostly gone away in this generation, but I still get complaints from the “senior” members about my 15 to 20 minute sermons being too long.
https://transculturalexchange.org/8x30klambsq Perhaps the answer is a good balance?
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Daniel Carlson says
https://blog.extraface.com/2024/08/07/39uxn9egqd
https://aiohealthpro.com/iuxpdmfllr My simple question is: why would you skip over Lutheranism and Lutheran preaching and entertain “Baptists” which are not only theologically unsound, but general baptist preaching is so law-based that it’s no wonder the american evangelical religion is all about trying to “do good” and “make God happy”?
https://www.clawscustomboxes.com/80c1jcp Lutheran preaching, at its core, is about proclamation; proclaiming the Law and the Gospel and allowing God and His Word to do the “calling” and being “dynamic”. How often do Lutherans do “altar calls”? NEVER! Not only is it unscriptural and mostly based on the American Frontier movement (with those Methodists and their crying benches and communion tokens and all that), but it does not seed the Gospel – God’s gift of love to man in spite of man’s inability to come to Him – purely AS Gospel. It’s always mixed with the legality that “you must come to God” or “you must decide”…
https://solomedicalsupply.com/2024/08/07/yhhhlrfr I just wonder why you skipped over Lutheranism and jumped into the mirk of evangelicalism…
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https://www.psicologialaboral.net/2024/08/07/jkyn42mh3rz Because Baptists are the numerically largest Protestant group in the USA. They also influence heavily almost every other evangelical group. In one sense, they are the 800 lb gorilla in the room.